Andrew Capewell: Welcome to this first edition of ipushpull's commodity technology podcast. My name is Andrew Capel. I am the head of product here at ipushpull. I recently joined a month ago after spending 12 years to trade port in various product roles overseeing everything from their aggregation platform.

Andrew Capewell: Their broker matching technology and some of the cool tools in emerging markets, particularly in the carbon and U. S. energy space.

Robert Kingham: My name is Robert Kingham and I'm previously worked for ICE for the last just under 13 years and I've recently joined ipushpull on the sales and technology side. Yeah. I've spent over a decade in commodities and energy before moving to equity derivatives and working on a number of different technology projects for those markets.

Robert Kingham: So in terms of what we want to discuss on the podcast is essentially where we think. What we know is happening in the commodity space what technology is coming in, what technology is probably going out and where we think the market's going and actually how we think push pull can, can help customers and from various types from brokers to traders to exchanges.

Robert Kingham: Facilitate better markets.

Andrew Capewell: Yeah, I think one thing that's always interesting is when you talk to people who aren't necessarily aware of how commodity markets work, or maybe they, they know how the concept of some equity markets and they're used to seeing a Bloomberg screen on TV or whatever, and they think about, you know, there's prices moving around all the time and people talking in picoseconds and all the rest of it, but then a lot of the commodity markets that you talk to, people are still using a piece of paper and a telephone on a desk.

Andrew Capewell: As their, as their primary technical resource in order to broke and trade those numbers. Yeah, exactly. I, I was actually speaking to a customer yesterday who was sitting between five or six different traders on the opposite side and he was essentially listening to five different conversations and he ran most of that with a piece of paper.

Andrew Capewell: So yeah, completely right for for change and to be more efficient. And yeah, I think there's a lot of tools out there. Either from push pull from other providers and really actually make people more efficient and yeah, make things a lot less manual than they are right now.

Andrew Capewell: So why do you think the change hasn't come faster?

Andrew Capewell: You know, these tools for electronic trading have existed for since the 80s, right? You see people on big computer terminals and all the rest of it back in the 80s. You know that most traders you go and see have got a bank of monitors in front of them. Why do you think the telephone and maybe chat?

Andrew Capewell: Communications tools are so, are still so prevalent in this market, and it's not all just on an exchange being done, hybrid algos, all the rest of it. Yeah, I think that is an amazing question, and it's an amazing question, I, because the answer to that is a very vast thing. In terms of Why things are done in a certain way.

Andrew Capewell: Each commodity energy market is actually, I think it needs to be looked at under a bit of a microscope for itself. You can't just generically say, this is how a particular market works. We all know that the carbon market works different from the gas market. The gas market works different from the oil market and the oil market is vastly different from the soft and agricultural markets.

Andrew Capewell: So each has to be looked at under a little bit of a lens and a different slight way of looking at things. If you take the commodity markets in terms of soft and agricultural markets, that is essentially has an incumbent exchange that kind of has most of those markets. It's very much electronic, but there's still everything goes through brokers, a bit of a gentleman's market still, still done in a certain way.

Andrew Capewell: It all really depends on the types of participants that you have in each market and some markets. As you know, in terms of energy commodities, they are for the hedges of that particular market. Some markets you're having hedge funds and you've got banks, you've got trading house and prop houses in there a little bit more advanced.

Andrew Capewell: And so it really has sort of a fragmentation of different types of people and they're all armed with different types of tech. Whether that be a telephone or a chat or a high frequency firm, it can all vary depending on market to market. Yeah. Yeah, I think there's still a lot of human scale in a lot of these markets in terms of the people are doing business with other people and some of the contracts are so different and complex and, and there is a lot of like movement around them, but it doesn't.

Andrew Capewell: You can't just have a one size fits all. You can't just have an exchange with a high frequency trading thing sat on every single one. It works in some markets where it needs to be fast and it, it makes sense to be completely digital, but then there's other markets where there's huge deals going on that take, you know, a couple of days to sort out or to get to agreement on and the broker needs to work those kind of pennies on the, Yeah, you're, you're absolutely right.

Andrew Capewell: So in terms of the human touch. When I first started an exchange, what, 13 years ago, everyone who was there essentially said the broker market will be dead in 10 years. And we're 13 years forward from that date and the broker market is still thriving. I think there's more brokers now than there were.

Andrew Capewell: And there's more brokers now than there was before. So I think most, some, some quarters do not understand or won't understand that people buy from people, people trade with people. So you're always going to need someone in the middle there to, to broke or finesse trades. Like in terms of trading itself, if you're trading in size, You're not going to put size on a screen if you're trading in particular markets, long dated markets or particular option, you're going to need someone to go and source that liquidity for you and you're going to need someone to talk to.

Andrew Capewell: And actually having someone on the end of the phone gives most people a bit of comfort rather than potentially clicking a button and fat fingering something. So yeah, brokers and sales traders are vastly important to the markets. So why don't you talk to me about something that you've seen, a cool thing that you've seen in the technology space and commodities.

Andrew Capewell: Maybe something that like, you hadn't thought of when you were at ICE that you thought was really cool and like, maybe like the broker tools. Something that they, that you hadn't seen and gone, that's really cool, we should. Yeah, like, in terms of working in the exchange, a lot of our technology was geared up to actually for traders.

Andrew Capewell: And it was about liquidity going on a screen, and it was about trading opportunities. So, I worked for a, a communication tool. An incumbent exchange called ICE, and that was sort of geared towards passing technology, looking at communications, passing that, and, and finding trading opportunities.

Andrew Capewell: I think probably on the reverse of that, what wasn't really sort of thought about is there is people typing in onto these chat platforms and distribution platforms. And actually these people probably need to save time too. So in terms of push pull I'm very sort of quite excited about some of the stuff they're doing or we're doing.

Andrew Capewell: I have to get away from saying they, it's now we. And yeah, in terms of saving people time and effort. It's, it's, that's, that's for me is very, very cool. So in terms of the communications landscape. A lot of that has become very, very fragmented. So depending on the region that you're in it could very much depend on the type of client that you're talking to and the way that they want to be communicated with.

Andrew Capewell: So whether that be on Bloomberg, Refinitiv, IceChat, Slack, Teams, Skype Whatsapp, WeChat, there is so many different ways of communicating with a customer via a chat mechanism that people are struggling. You'd have to be a fighter pilot or an Apache pilot to actually keep up with the amount of dings going off on your desktop.

Andrew Capewell: So, I think that that area is sort of ripe for disruption in terms of, you know, Allowing people to have a better workflow. So I think that's that's a cool topic for me. And I was recently out in Asia at APIC and a lot of customers were saying the same thing. I I have all these different customers.

Andrew Capewell: I have all these different ways of communicating with them. I need to consolidate that down and just make my tasks very much from take it from manual to a bit more automation and save myself time. Yeah. Yeah, I think that is 100%. I think the interesting thing you say there about like you'd have to be a fighter pilot to be able to keep up with all of the data that's coming in.

Andrew Capewell: And there's so many cool platforms out there as well that are doing the things with the data to visualization and trying to like deduce down what's what's interesting, what's a signal, and what's noise. And then kind of this, there's some really interesting things that people can do like where, you know, a lot of.

Andrew Capewell: A lot of, a lot of this information you, you see traders are able to read that all of this information in their head and they can see a curve of numbers and they can see, you know, if it's in backwardation or a contango or whatever. But then you get, as you say, there's so many different sources for that data.

Andrew Capewell: Well, which ones? You know, once person saying it's backwardation, one's saying it's contango with what's the truth here? And then trying to aggregate a lot of that information together, being able to then visually present what the different viewpoints are. All of that data visualization stuff that's really cool as well, I think, in terms of secret communication, and then you've got the actual structuring of that data.

Andrew Capewell: I know you talk to so many houses and institutions where they've got all of this data, but then how do they actually consume it in a, in a human readable form? What's interesting, what's not, and how do you kind of determine what sits in there? I think there's a lot, a lot of space there as well. We've seen some cool tools come over the last few years.

Andrew Capewell: Yeah, absolutely. And in terms of, it is essentially an arms race. Race. So whenever anyone comes out with a cool app everyone wants that particular app. But then once everyone has it, it's it's sort of leveled the playing field for everyone. And then it's kind of where you can sort of save time, same, save, same.

Andrew Capewell: So find yeah yeah, time and effort essentially. So what do you think is the biggest challenge in commodities technology in the next year? I think in terms of my viewpoint, which is more on the communication side of things yeah, post COVID most A lot of trading or not most really, but sort of good high 80, 90 percent of trading in OTC world is done on a chat, right?

Andrew Capewell: And also it's not just COVID it's, it's, it's generational gap. Whereas you've had people on the phones previously who like that human connection I think most people in sort of their twenties, thirties, if someone gives 'em a call, they're afraid to pick up their phone. Right? They would prefer to be getting a WhatsApp or, or a communication message.

Andrew Capewell: So post covid, the type of people, the type of person people are now humans that we are now. Mm-Hmm. . We like to have that sort of slight, slightly standoffish way of communicating. Yeah. And I think trading is no different from that. Yeah, that's kind of like, and I think the problem that stems with that is the sheer volume of different communication tools there are.

Andrew Capewell: So that's very, very fragmented. Yeah. Also And what sort of challenges does the fragmentation lead to for a broker or a trader? What, why is that a problem? Yeah, so from a, from a I think it's more from a broker or a sales trader point of view, you have, you can have 200 customers. And they're on seven different venues when it comes to communicating.

Andrew Capewell: So if you're a broker, just physically being able to type out seven different chats is a major issue. Like your, your job is finding liquidity, right? And you're taking a huge amount of your day, hours and hours and hours of your day. Trying to find liquidity via a different mechanism. So ideally you need to consolidate that down and save as much time as you can because you want to be able to service your clients very, very quickly.

Andrew Capewell: And also most people probably do that would likely burn out over a period of time. From a trader's point of view, I think traders have a bit more power. They can narrow the communication that they have. And But in turn, in having everything on a chat in turn has its own problems because if you have a high volume of brokers or a high volume of counterparties, having a chat again, it's the firepilot mentality.

Andrew Capewell: You're seeing a lot of information in lots of different sort of screens. And again, that needs to be consolidated down. Ideally, if you're trading, you want to pass that or recognize that information and you want to be able to blend that or enrich that with your own data so that you can actually make viable trading decisions.

Andrew Capewell: I mean, you said it's exactly that, right? Like, I think I was talking to a trader in a power market not so long ago who was saying that, you know, they're fine if they're paying attention to a chat in the market. Yeah, but they've got another job. They're not just 100 percent being able to focus on that market all day long.

Andrew Capewell: They've got other stuff to do. They have to go to a meeting. They've got other, you know, people management to do all the rest of it. They come back to their desk. Their market's completely on a particular chat platform. Yeah. And they then have to go and catch up. Where's the market been? What's it done?

Andrew Capewell: You know, maybe they have to ask a broker, can you just give me a summary of what's just happened? The broker's like, oh, mate, I'm busy. I've got other things to do. Why are you bothering me with like, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not a a graph maker for you. Yeah. The broker obviously says, yes sir, I'll do that.

Andrew Capewell: But like, the, you know, there's tools out there that can fix that problem. Yeah. And it's just about making, trying to find, pair up the right problem to the right market. And I think it's very, as you say, it's very specific in terms of what chat platform they're using, how hybrid, digital versus on the, on the screen that is, all the rest of it, you know, it's all about pairing up the, the right tool for the right job in each market.

Andrew Capewell: And, and just going in with, into every commodity market with a one size fits all is, is It doesn't particularly work. Lots of people have tried it. Lots of people have seen that it, you know, every market needs a little bit of a different touch and a feel and you really need to understand the commodity you're trading or you're trying to put that technology into before you roll in and say, here it is, lads.

Andrew Capewell: Absolutely. And just the example you gave again, I was on a call yesterday with a US trading house. And again, they were having multiple conversations going on at the same time. Everyone who's obviously in the market probably knows the term broker ear, but broker ear can only be so good when there's so many conversations going around.

Andrew Capewell: So I had a client yesterday that was having a 500 lot order sitting in his chat for four hours because He has four or five different chat systems and he has the voice box going as well. So those little missed opportunities or that little bit of bad service, right? Can really kind of affect your business.

Andrew Capewell: It might not. Yeah. He might've lost 500 bucks on that order, but if that happens daily, then that can really, really mount up to a hard at some point, the trade will pull the line. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So I think I am very excited about some of the stuff that city push port can do. And I've seen some other applications that can do some other quite, quite cool things.

Andrew Capewell: And yeah, I, I think next couple of years is going to be quite exciting for quality markets and particularly for the position that I push Paula in. Yeah. And what about the control of that, and then, of that data, and how, how people And maintain the, you know, they've got all of this data coming in.

Andrew Capewell: How do they control where it goes and who sees it and all the rest of it? Because you start putting it into maybe a platform or a screen and, and it all of a sudden, where does it go? That is, that is again, one of the biggest pain points. I think a lot of people are having this realization now is you may have had technology that just works okay.

Andrew Capewell: And it fits, it fits your purpose for the last few years. But suddenly it's dawning on people that hold on, I'm using a vendor. For this particular reason, I'm sending data over that, that, that system or data is being sent to me, actually, where is that data going? And it's not until you look into the nitty gritty of your contracts that you actually notice that these vendors potentially using your data or they're harvesting your data and then selling it on.

Andrew Capewell: So that actually that question comes to me a lot. About and how people can take back control really of what they're doing. And as part of that again, like I don't want to keep pushing iPushball, but push iPushball can essentially give you data distribution, but actually can really allow you to manage where that's going.

Andrew Capewell: You know who it's going to, you know what access levels they've got, and you know how they're using the data, which I think is very, very key. If you have a niche market or if you're very strong in your particular market, then you, you want to protect that, that data that you're giving out. And I think that's very, very important.

Andrew Capewell: So I'm, I'm very pleased that someone like Pushpool can can handle that. Yeah. That's really cool. And then as far as moving on to the, to the, the crux of what we're going to talk about as well in terms of WhatsApp, and I think the, the how much WhatsApp is used by commodity markets and commodity traders still, I think it probably alarms a lot of people to think about.

Andrew Capewell: I think you're right. If we were, if we were sitting in the US I think that the, the view of WhatsApp is slightly distorted depending on what part of the world you're, you're living in. And also it depends on the size of your, your shop of your company. Yeah. So when I was at the exchange The use of WhatsApp was obviously like frowned upon from in terms of an official way of communicating for trading.

Andrew Capewell: And there's obviously being a lot, a lot of things in the news with various banks getting these huge, huge fines. But a lot of that was down to the personal usage of WhatsApp and Whereas you, you can use WhatsApp. If you're a small medium sized player, you're, you're in Asia, you're in Europe. If obviously you, you, you're compliant and you're recording those logs and you're, you're, Utilizing that data for sort of regulatory purposes.

Andrew Capewell: So I think there's a lot of noise when it comes to the use of WhatsApp. So yeah, we, we are seeing, I think, the growing of WhatsApp to be used in commodity and financial markets. And yeah, from, from my sort of travels, I've seen, yeah, that that's just growing. And yeah, it's And why do you think WhatsApp over, you know, there are other that feel more like business or trade really appropriate.

Andrew Capewell: Yeah. Chat platforms. Why, why is WhatsApp so heavily used or why is it relied on? Why is it growing? What's the advantage of using WhatsApp over Other platforms are available. Yeah, absolutely. So, well, people are people. And as I said earlier on, people will buy from people. But people are human beings.

Andrew Capewell: And what do you use everyday for the billion people on the planet that have WhatsApp? They're going to use WhatsApp. So they like the look and feel of it. They're very much used to it. It's on the, on the go, it's on their phone. Most people spend, I don't know, I think I had a a little ding on my phone the other day telling me I'd spent average of seven hours on my phone, which was a rather embarrassing last week, but people do spend a lot of time on their phone.

Andrew Capewell: And particularly when you have markets from Asia to Europe, People are leaving the office, they're going home, they want to check their positions, they want to check their trades. They're going to be communicating by the one thing that they use in their daily life, which is, which is WhatsApp. So from their point of view, as long as they can get that, that audible and compliant, they shouldn't really have a problem.

Andrew Capewell: But I've, I've, I actually have sort of seen a bigger trend going more and more to WhatsApp, even though you've seen a lot of noise out of the US about these fines and things like that. And I suppose if you circle back as well, back to the the control of data, in case, you know, meta goes to great lengths to explain how it is end to end encrypted.

Andrew Capewell: And the irony, right, is that Telegram is, you have to turn that feature on, if you want end to end encryption in Telegram to make sure it actually works. Each user involved in a conversation has to turn it on, whereas WhatsApp, you can't turn it off. It's not possible to turn it off. And so you know, or a firm knows, that the conversation you're having on WhatsApp is between you and any of the participants that are in that chat group or an individual conversation versus maybe other platforms where you don't necessarily have the same sense of security on that data.

Andrew Capewell: Yeah, and obviously any of these incumbent chat platforms are gonna be, are gonna be secure otherwise they wouldn't be used. But it's not the security that's the problem, it's the fact that. Probably if you look through your, your, your EULA or your terms and conditions, your data most likely is going to be used in some fashion, particularly if anything is free or supposedly free, then you are the product essentially.

Andrew Capewell: So yeah, I think, I think more people in the, in the last few years have become very aware particularly in the market itself or in their personal life. That any service that you use has terms and conditions. And particularly if it's free or if it's low cost, more than likely you are going to be the product.

Andrew Capewell: So I think commodity participants, energy participants are becoming sort of very aware that suddenly they may be the product. And they really want to sort of take that control where their data is coming from or going to. It reminds me of that recent story around the home entertainment provider.

Andrew Capewell: So on someone providing a service, had a T's and C's for a free trial and then subsequently someone had an allergic reaction at one of their on premise venues. And it got pointed out that it was, it was absolutely fine, because they signed away their life when they applied for, they had the free trial that they didn't even pay for, while sitting at home with their TV remote.

Andrew Capewell: Yeah, absolutely. Like, how many of us have gone on used the service, and just scrolled and just ticked the box? And you've had no idea what you're signing up to. And unfortunately that's why it's good to have your compliance and legal people look through your terms and conditions your EULAs and actually check any of these sort of perpetual documents, these live documents, actually see what you're really signing up to.

Andrew Capewell: Fair enough. And then, then I suppose the other side of that coin is how do you, how does someone get value out of those, those conversations for their own personal, their own firm's use? How do you automate that? What are the challenges there? So that's a very good question. So something like, like obviously there's, we at Pushpool, we work with all these different chat providers.

Andrew Capewell: Someone like a, for a WhatsApp, there are a couple of different ways sort of to access that data. We have. The official route and a slightly non official route. The problems can, for each chat platform is each chat platform will have slightly different functionality. So what we will do when we're talking to a customer is sort of go through the options, whether that may be Teams Slack or WhatsApp or WeChat or Telegram and we'll go through what's available, what's not.

Andrew Capewell: Because obviously perception about what you actually can do and not do with data can, can be slightly different. So we just go through sort of how. Each, each one will work and what we can do with that. Yeah. And again, on a market specific or even customer specific basis, right? That's the beauty of it is that it's not a one size fits all solution.

Andrew Capewell: It is tailorable to each individual customer's own problem and own journey. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. In terms of like a trader if they're doing a very sort of vanilla market, actually passing that data or extracting that data can be quite easy. If it's something that's a little bit more complex, then we have different techniques for doing that.

Andrew Capewell: So yeah, it's not one size fits all, it's probably like four sizes that we can apply to different, different types of traders and different types of markets. Okay. And then in terms of the insights and analytics that you could, or you have seen people get from, from that chat data, like what's, what's some of the interesting stuff you've seen people do with it?

Andrew Capewell: What's, what is the, you know, the possibilities are endless and I'm sure people's imaginations are going to be far more powerful, but there must be something cool that you've seen someone do with it. Yeah, my imagination, imagination is quite strong to be honest. So but we won't go into that on here.

Andrew Capewell: In terms of what you can do from a trading point of view. Yeah. If you could just pass the data that you're receiving from your counterparties. You can quickly price that up and return prices, so you're actually giving yourself a bit of an edge. Obviously there are people out there who've been doing that for a long, long time.

Andrew Capewell: Some the sort of the, the big market makers, for example, they've built some of this technology themselves and that's why they can price so fast. If you are a brokerage or a bank, you wanna be able to see which counterparty is actually responding to an RFQ very in a quick and timely manner. Mm-Hmm, , which broker is actually, if you're a brokering shop.

Andrew Capewell: You want to see who's your best broker? Yeah. Okay. This guy or this person here, this girl might be bringing in a lot of bro, but actually, and you you want to see how speedy they are, what times they're working to you can, you can check all sorts of different things. So yeah, I've seen people from banks to brokers start doing things like that.

Andrew Capewell: So they can really service their clients better. Yeah. Yeah, because there's always an opinion of what we think is happening, but until you actually the narrative of the vibe, the, the, the vibe that you get, but in terms of we actually get the data, you can actually see the trends. So a lot of people are interested in kind of looking at that sort of trend information.

Andrew Capewell: Yeah. And that interaction information to sort of change their business and, and, and, and drive revenue. Yeah. One thing I've always been struck by, in, in. Commodity markets is what my background is, but I'm sure it's a problem in the wider broker market has always been that insights, you know, that CRM in sales, you're perfectly used to putting things into a CRM system to be able to really understand and get, you know, understand what the value of each conversation, each touch point was, but in broking it almost seems like the fear that, People are just watching them, but the, the value doesn't ever seem to run that back to the broker of being able to get the value of like, oh, they put a number out to 16 different traders and only one of them responded.

Andrew Capewell: And you know, that guy never talks before lunch, but he's all, all afternoon. He's chatting away to you, giving you a price back, giving you the information you need. And so that's the person that you should spend your time and effort on. And when you should spend your time and effort on those. Different individuals based on what makes them tick and what, what, what kind of profile they fit.

Andrew Capewell: Yeah, absolutely. So again, on a brokerage side yeah, people are going to have a particular viewpoint from their perception and it's all about relationships. So I can understand how particularly brokerages or brokers per se would see technology that was kind of invasive. They would see that as, Oh my God, that's a negative thing because my whole business is about relationships.

Andrew Capewell: But actually from our point of view, We're agnostic and we're building technology actually for brokers, right? So we're trying to Essentially give them a tool that gives them a slightly different perception gives them sort of data They can actually make give them a better decision making and they don't have to be afraid of it I think what has sort of happened in so the last decade is exchanges or vendors who are building tools and it's to almost work against the brokers and take liquidity away from the brokers and move it to a club business or a screen business.

Andrew Capewell: So a lot of brokers will probably have Sort of a slightly skewed perception of technology. Yeah. And I think actually now what you're seeing is you're seeing providers, not just ipushpull, but other providers actually building tools that were going to help brokers. Yeah. Yeah. So I've got, I've got to end.

Andrew Capewell: I think we're, we're, we're running out of time. We've, we've bored everyone to death for a while, but I've got one, I've got one question. And that you, you have made a similar journey to me over in the past in terms of moving from a commodities focus and really understanding a commodities market.

Andrew Capewell: Yeah. And then moving into an equities market. And as part of my role, I like Chris Poole. We're kind of market agnostic, and I'm really excited by that because it opens up such a wide breadth of opportunity for me to go and learn all new spaces and all the rest of it. But what would you say is like the biggest difference between the two spaces that you didn't foresee before you started that journey of learning that new space?

Andrew Capewell: This is a very good question. I think The very different, the setups are slightly different, right? So in terms of involvement, whereas you still had in, you know, commodity markets and oil markets, energy markets over the last decade that sort of sell side by side. Set up has kind of largely disappeared.

Andrew Capewell: It's more of an all to all market. Everyone talks to each other in equities, equity derivatives. You still have that sell side by side set up. But actually, I think it's scientists change like so it is actually opening up a little bit. And you're starting to see particularly bank traders moving to the buy side and they want to maintain their broker relationships.

Andrew Capewell: So you're starting to see people still communicating with each other directly. So I think I think that trend will continue and eventually that will become probably an alterable market. Similarly to quality of energy, but actually funny enough, the technology and equity derivatives is probably a bit more advanced than it is in in, in the commodity space.

Andrew Capewell: So the setup's very different. But again, I think these all different markets could probably learn different lessons from each other. And then I suppose one last final question, the obvious follow up to that is, so what, what Cool thing. Do you think the commodities market could learn from equity and derivatives? 

Andrew Capewell: Equities, derivatives? Sorry. Yeah, there's, there's some really cool tools out in equity derivatives. I probably don't wanna go into it now, and but yeah, we'll get it. We just won't ask that question. We'll cut there. Yeah, we'll cut that one there. All right. Well, Rob, thanks for for joining us on this, this first version of the, or first iteration of the commodities podcast that I push call and we we will, we'll be back soon, I'm sure.

Andrew Capewell: Yeah. Pleasure.