00:00:00:04 - 00:00:27:23
David Jones
So hello and welcome to the ipushpull podcast. I'm David Jones, the CTO and co-founder of ipushpulll. We're a data sharing and workflow automation platform, which is used by banks, brokers, asset managers and trading values. So a wide range of organizations across the financial markets. In today's podcast, we're going to have a particular focus on one of the ways our customers interact with our platform, namely chat box.

00:00:28:20 - 00:00:36:06
David Jones
So help me with this. I'm delighted to be joined by two guests from companies that we partner with. First of all, Rob Friend from Symphony. Hi, Rob.

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Rob Friend
Hi there.

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David Jones
And Simon Coughlan from Euromoney Trade Data. Hi, Simon.

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Simon Coughlan
Hi, David.

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David Jones
So let's start with you, Rob. What does Symphony do and what do you do for Symphony?

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Rob Friend
Okay, so Symphony is a collaboration platform. I think we're best known for our chat product, but we also provide voice and a lot of automation products as well to help people with their daily workflows in the institutional finance space. In terms of my role, I'm a product manager here and I look after the market solutions and extensibility side of the products.

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Rob Friend
So everything to do with building in vendor connections, all the tools that we use to integrate to third party systems as well as some of the features that our users want in terms of financial products.

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David Jones
Okay, great. Thank you. And how about you, Simon?

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Simon Coughlan
Yeah. So today I'm here talking about your own monetary data. I have a broader role. I look after euromoney derivatives portfolio. But Euromoney data specifically provides derivatives data predominantly in tier one banks. There's lots of processes that euro money run for these banks that integrate different data sets for all sorts of reasons, like trading, clearing, regulatory compliance.

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Simon Coughlan
So, yes, we have lots of different products from what products to API to large data feeds provided via SFTP.

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David Jones
Okay, great. Thank you. So first of all, in all, talk about chat bots. We're going to consider the topic at a general level. So looking at how people are using them inside symphony and examining the kind of chat bots that we had over superlative alerts. Next, we'll drill down into a particular example, which is a chat bot. Chat bot called TaDa.

00:02:36:15 - 00:02:59:11
David Jones
This is Euro Money's Chat Bot, which was implemented by push, pull and live inside Symphony. Then finally, we'll try to take a bit of a long view. Which way is the market for chatbots heading and what other innovations are going to change the way that people within the financial markets are working today? So let's kick off.

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David Jones
I mean, if I can start off with you, Rob. Here's an easy question. What is a chat bot?

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Rob Friend
That's a good question. So I think probably people are familiar with chat bots from their personal lives. You deal with them when you talk to your power company, to your phone company, to your bank, and essentially it's the same experience, but on the professional side of people's lives in finance. So it's a way that a human can talk to a machine in a kind of human friendly way.

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Rob Friend
So a chat with a machine is the chapel.

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David Jones
Okay, great. And what kind of chat bot were people using inside symphony?

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Rob Friend
So we've got a wide variety of chat bots inside Symphony. I think the most basic chatbot performs a function of really just notifying people of when an event has occurred or when a piece of data has become available. So really just a push notification. So very simple interaction. We also see slightly more sophisticated chat bots where a user requests some information from a chat box.

00:03:58:11 - 00:04:17:00
Rob Friend
And then I guess the third and probably the most sophisticated is where there's a whole workflow based behind that chatbot, where a user can start a process, interact with a chatbot get taken down a decision tree path and eventually get to the, you know, the outcome that they were looking for. So there's a real range of chatbots that we see on the platform.

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David Jones
The bots that that live on symphony. Do you write these themselves yourselves or do companies implement them?

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Rob Friend
So so we provide the tools to allow our clients and vendors like I push pull to build these bots. So, you know, there are some bots that are built by symphony for some of our workflows, both internally but also with clients. But the majority there are about 2000 individual bots across our network are built by either our clients or by vendors for our clients.

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David Jones
Bots, an incredible number of bots on the platform. I mean, how does that compare to the number of human users on symphony?

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Rob Friend
So to give you a sense of scale, I think, you know, the network that we have today covers about a thousand firms or over a thousand firms. These are all financial institutions. In terms of the number of users, we've got approximate about half a million users. And so the majority of those interactions with those bots is normally a human to about the obviously one human to the bot can communicate with many humans, but we also see an examples where bots actually communicate with other bots.

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Rob Friend
So we start to see more sophisticated interactions where you can have machine to machine interactions as well as humans machine interactions. Hmm. Okay.

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David Jones
One of the key things about symphony is the fact that it provides this kind of secure messaging layer between different marketing market participants. So any message that the bank sends to Bank B or between a broker, an apparent call between a bank and A, on the buy side, they're all encrypted and secure. Do you find people using chat bots for, you know as well as just for internal workflows inside an organization?

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David Jones
Do they use them for communicating with their clients or counterparties?

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Rob Friend
Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, the initial use cases tend to be internal when people first start to use the sort of chat bots because they want to make sure that they they can control them and understand how they behave. But we definitely see more and more uses for external chatbots. So whether it's to surface research to a client to help with that kind of customer service experience.

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Rob Friend
So it could be decision trees. We see them on the operations sides of financial institutions where issue resolution can be speeded up with a bot interaction and maybe a combination of human and a bot from an institution talking to another human on the other side of of that interaction. So there's a real a real wide variety now, but definitely more and more we're seeing the external bot adoption increase.

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David Jones
Okay, cool. And why do people like using boxed bots? Do you think? What's why don't they just use a sort of a dedicated application to do the kind of workflows that they do that are being presented by the boss?

00:07:09:09 - 00:07:30:07
Rob Friend
Yeah, there's definitely a place for both and I think what we see is used in parallel. So I don't think it's an either or. I think the advantage of putting a bot over a network like Symphony is that the connections to the end user are already there. So you don't have to go through firewalls, you don't need to deploy software, you don't need to teach someone to go to your web page and put in their credentials.

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Rob Friend
All those things are kind of taken away and dealt with for you. So in terms of the friction to get to the end user know, it's much quicker to implement upon adoption there. What we see, you know, when you get into some of the more sophisticated workflows is you can then the bot can act as an entry point maybe into that more sophisticated platform or front end that you want to take.

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Rob Friend
People do. So I don't think it's a one an either. Always definitely use them in parallel and use them already to complement each other.

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David Jones
Exactly. I mean, we've certainly from all customers, we've the reason why they like bots is and this is a direct quote is because they provide an easy an easy on ramp to an application or to a platform. Yeah. One of our one of our broker customers, they provide lots of ways for their for their clients to interact that they provider of a screen, an application that people could install on their desktop, or they provide things like fix interfaces that they can hook up their, you know, their internal platforms to.

00:08:39:00 - 00:09:02:11
David Jones
But both of those are problematic. You know, if you go into any kind of trading floor, you can see that each end user has multiple monitors. You know, could be anything for six up to eight monitors on their desk at a time. And that, you know, in spite of that, the kind of screen real estate, as they call it, is really limited.

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David Jones
It's really hard to get another application onto somebody's desktop so users often just will not they just choose not to run the application. So, so being able to present that kind of workflow inside something they've already got running like a chat platform like symphony that's already open on their desk, it really reduces the friction of, of onboarding that, that, that user to the workflow.

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David Jones
Yeah, I.

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Rob Friend
Think the other, the other thing that is important in that example is you can also surface that information when you need to so the user doesn't have to have the application open all the time. If they're in symphony and something occurs, whatever the thing is, you can then use the bot to highlight to the user. They need to take an action or do something rather than having to, like you say, you get that real estate in one of those six screens and have it constantly up there and be watching it.

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Rob Friend
You can actually use the, you know, the symphony real estate for that totally.

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David Jones
People that need to have something open all the time they need being able to sort of tap them on the shoulder, figuratively speaking, when something of interest happens, is, is, is really useful.

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Simon Coughlan
This is the low cost of implementation. If you've already got the platform.

00:10:16:14 - 00:10:52:15
David Jones
Yes, exactly. Yeah, that's right. Because we have well, a great example of that is fix integrations, fix fixes. Fantastic. If you want to if you if you want to hook up a platform in company by a company to a platform in company B, but more often than not do the companies. If there's not a if there's not a really valuable business case for doing it, then they're not going to expand the time on time and efforts of implementing that fix interface and then running it, you know, running it.

00:10:52:15 - 00:11:16:01
David Jones
24 seven So, you know, by providing platforms that allow you to say hook up, fix into chat, which is one thing that we've done, is it, you know, again, it provides another easy way of getting the getting the workflow into an application that somebody is already using without having to do an expensive implementation or or deployment project.

00:11:17:02 - 00:11:31:15
Simon Coughlan
That's and that's actually a use case that ETD could use as well, because we have FIX integrations coming into our cloud environments. So we could surface that firewall and push pull in the bot within symphony.

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David Jones
Well, we could light it to speak to about that. Yeah.

00:11:37:00 - 00:12:02:03
David Jones
So I think we're talking a lot about the simplicity of, of servicing data or workflows using using bots. They obviously do need some developments. But Rob, I know the symphony's implemented some some toolkits and frameworks to allow people to easily build bots. Can you talk a little bit about a bit about those?

00:12:02:10 - 00:12:29:15
Rob Friend
Yeah, sure. So we have a number of tools that we we provide. There's a bot developer kit, which the idea is helps developers build a bot reasonably quickly. You know, we obviously have our APIs which if you really want to go down to kind of the nuts and bolts, you can you can connect to those. But the bot developer or BTK is really there to help you build up in hopefully, you know, days or maybe a couple of weeks.

00:12:30:08 - 00:12:56:18
Rob Friend
And then more recently, I think we've we've released a workflow developer kit WD came, which really tries to go a bit further for the the less sophisticated programmers like myself out there who maybe know what they want to build, have an idea of the workflow they'd like to see and can visualize that. But maybe on an expert show Java programmers or, you know, ready to go go down into that level of detail.

00:12:56:18 - 00:13:13:09
Rob Friend
But it's really there to help us get those bots out to the people that want them and allow more people to build them. Because I think the thing as we're talking about, the great thing about bots is, you know, there's not much friction to actually getting them deployed. There's still friction and you still need someone to build them.

00:13:13:09 - 00:13:25:14
Rob Friend
And the more that we can provide these tools, the allow users to build them swiftly without having to learn lots of new languages and lots of symphony specifics, the better it is for us and the better it is for the end user as well.

00:13:26:05 - 00:13:53:16
David Jones
That's cool that we've used your your bot developer kits. We started off using the API directly, but that the BTK makes it really straightforward. We found C to hook up our code, which handles all kind of integration with data and with the workflows that we implement and that kind of expose them into symphony itself. Yeah, we've used the python flavor of the the BTK.

00:13:54:01 - 00:13:58:17
David Jones
Yeah, we haven't tried the workflow developer kit. Yeah, but yeah. Watch this space.

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Rob Friend
It's still relatively new, so. Yeah, it's.

00:14:02:16 - 00:14:09:15
David Jones
It's a little more looking. Yeah, it's a really intriguing prospect. So it's. Yeah, it's something we all can look into.

00:14:10:06 - 00:14:15:02
Simon Coughlan
Is the BTK essentially an abstraction layer over the APIs?

00:14:15:20 - 00:14:17:00
Rob Friend
Essentially? Yeah.

00:14:18:02 - 00:14:43:23
David Jones
Yeah. So it kind of removes a lot of the complexity of hooking up directly to the to the API. You know, it simplifies things like authentication and so on. It's, um, it abstracts that kind of thing away. Yeah. So we've, um, so I suppose we should drill down into a little bit about how we've, we are push pull have implemented our bots.

00:14:45:08 - 00:15:22:00
David Jones
So what, you know, symphony, you've got your own bot framework which allows and makes it really straightforward for, for, for companies to hook up to symphony channels. We've got our own bot framework as well, which allows us to hook up data to data into a, into a chat workflow and then makes it really straightforward to create bot commands that allow people to slice and dice the data that they want to get into the get into chats.

00:15:22:00 - 00:15:54:18
David Jones
This is something that we've been really important in producing. Ta da. The forum reports that we've we've implemented to gather the big challenge with with Euromoney data is it's the size of it there's a great deal of out there and updates quite you know quite frequently so. SIMON Do you want to, you know, tell us a little bit about what what kind of data Euromoney has and something about maybe the traditional ways that you get out to your customers.

00:15:55:11 - 00:16:25:20
Simon Coughlan
Sure. So we Euromoney derivatives taking data from all kinds of sources. So we're taking data from many of the big traditional data vendors on behalf of our customers and those datasets are traditionally pooled via SFP and they tend to be the universe of data. And we'd be talking about, you know, potentially 30 million rows of data, over 150 columns.

00:16:25:20 - 00:16:59:22
Simon Coughlan
So you've got these gigantic databases. We've also got data, as I've talked about earlier, fics, where we'd be pulling specific exchanges and specific instruments into one database. And then we've also got very scraping operations to get free to air data and condense it down into a common model. Now, typically how we serve that is again back out to customers as a SFTP delivery that could be delimited text files, it could be SML, it could be Jason.

00:16:59:22 - 00:17:26:08
Simon Coughlan
We surface that like string of web products, we have lots of search functionality and so on, and we also have an API product that customers can consume on demand. What the bulk gives us is the ability to surface all of that data and it's updated near time just by very, very small amounts. So a customer, for example, could search for an identifier.

00:17:26:20 - 00:17:40:02
Simon Coughlan
They could get that related data back straight to their screen and for example, fixed rate breaks. And that's really a new use case for us. We see lots of potential with that bolt on the symphony platform.

00:17:40:23 - 00:17:48:05
David Jones
Okay. So so what kind of data is it that you that you have? I mean, things like instruments, static data that kind of thing.

00:17:48:18 - 00:18:18:09
Simon Coughlan
Yes. Yes, it would be. It's yeah. Futures options data, all of the attributes around that. So regulatory data such as a license, for example, say for then all of the associated series studies there from the vendors. So what's trading in the market? Potentially some pricing information. So generally it's static, but we can also get a flow of days in time from all of vendors that have up to date series.

00:18:20:02 - 00:18:21:18
Simon Coughlan
So strike prices and so.

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David Jones
So the way that we that we've connected to to your data is well there's various APIs. Well actually that's you get data into our platform and then expose it through chatbots in various different ways at the very basic level, some customers just have like an Excel sheet and they can push the data straight into us. But for something that's a bit more systematic, like, like we've set up with Euromoney, we use two different approaches.

00:18:53:12 - 00:19:30:05
David Jones
One of them he's he's using our data loader and that as a date basically does a a daily query against some of your databases and that pushes the data through our API. And that's suitable for things like smaller datasets, things like daily corporate actions, which is generally a few hundred rows of data. I think kind of that, that kind of size for some of the larger datasets like instrument stocktake, your s70 paying that to us and then we import that into our platform.

00:19:30:05 - 00:19:54:07
David Jones
And then once it's in on push pull a we we basically we've worked with you very closely I think to to define the set of queries that you think your end users will be most interested in being able to and being able to use. So you can take a piece of data and you can use our interactive tool to build some standard bulk commands.

00:19:54:07 - 00:20:17:08
David Jones
So for example, we have one like CIO today and that gives you all of the corporate actions today. You can have corporate action CIO next, I think, which gives you which takes a parameter so you could say give you the corporate actions for the next five days or so. And then there's some queries that do a sort of a much bigger search across the full dataset.

00:20:17:08 - 00:20:52:09
David Jones
So that's for things like searching for static data, searching for instrument definitions and so on. So this is, you know, these are the kind of things that we've worked on to because we think they're the kind of queries that end users will will be interested in using. So this assignment, why do you think exposing these kind of things inside a platform like symphony in particular, I guess is is going to be particularly welcome to our end users.

00:20:53:02 - 00:21:34:15
Simon Coughlan
Well, essentially what we were able to do is is enable the users to get to specific pieces of information with a set of defined commands, without the users having to set up the processes we've set up to pump data in at scale into their environments. Essentially what we can give them is a command line interface with a set of intuitive commands that enables them to surface the data without any implementation costs of implementing the data flows that come from all of the different data sources and data placing it and all of the maintenance that goes with that.

00:21:34:15 - 00:21:42:07
Simon Coughlan
Essentially, they have one common interface they can pull the data of on demand.

00:21:42:07 - 00:22:13:09
David Jones
Yeah, that's right. And I think one of the benefits of symphony is that, you know, that this tidal bolt symphony lets you basically appears like another human user inside symphony. So you can you can search through the symphony directory and connect to its and once you've connected to the bolt, you know, you can start using it immediately. So there's no installation and users don't have to do any context switching to, you know, to start using it.

00:22:15:00 - 00:22:38:11
David Jones
We've, we've got the box completely of yeah. Is available inside the symphony directory this is middle question for you Rob I guess what's the kind of you've mentioned that symphony has got hundreds of thousands of users. What kind of organizations do they work for? And, you know, what's your what's your kind of spread across the financial markets?

00:22:38:21 - 00:23:09:12
Rob Friend
Yeah, I think we we probably touch every financial institution type you can think of. So from the big tier one cell sites through to, you know, obviously the Tier two and tier three cell size, the banks we have entity, the brokers. We've talked about them earlier on the call, asset managers, hedge funds, so you name it, we probably have many of each flavor and that networks growing and growing constant basis.

00:23:09:12 - 00:23:35:11
Rob Friend
So you know I think there's the use case for that to dabble specifically is probably more on the sort of support operations trade break side of things. And that user base, you know, is on symphony too. So as well as the front office, we also have the middle office and know and operations uses so real spread of institution types and also user types within those institutions.

00:23:35:11 - 00:23:57:20
David Jones
So I think it provides a really good route to markets for for organizations like Euromoney. It allows them to sort of reach out to, you know, maybe tier two, tier three banks, asset managers and so on, you know, who previously might not have been able to see it get hold of the kind of data that that that the Euromoney provides.

00:23:59:00 - 00:24:22:21
Rob Friend
And I think maybe I might maybe one for you and Simon, but I think the actual kind of cost to build versus, you know, how you'd have to develop a tool and then market out is probably a much better value for money to kind of build these things. And then you know, if there is adoption really kind of invest in and build on it from there, so much faster route to market, much more agile kind of way of getting a new product out.

00:24:22:21 - 00:24:25:17
Rob Friend
I think.

00:24:25:17 - 00:24:52:22
David Jones
Yeah, totally. I mean, we, we provide a way of just hooking up your data, configuring some commands, and then off you go. Really, it can be it can literally be as quick as that. But some of the stuff that we also provide that perhaps the end users don't see but is very useful for the Euromoney sales team is all the kind of audit and monitoring information that we provide in the background.

00:24:53:08 - 00:25:16:12
David Jones
So we're able to see when users sign up, we can see the kind of, you know, if there's any, if they're making consistent mistakes with with any of the commands. So it could help us to sort of tune the commands. If people keep making the same kind of error, it helps us to think, okay, well, actually, maybe we should change the command to make it something a little bit more, more understandable.

00:25:17:06 - 00:25:17:21
David Jones
Of course.

00:25:17:21 - 00:25:46:03
Simon Coughlan
We also have the analytics so we can see by by looking at the IP logs, for example, that customers are issuing certain commands to get specific data sets back that enable us to really profile what the customer is looking at and potentially tailor more solutions for that customer around what they've already looked at. So that information is really useful to us in terms of analytics.

00:25:46:22 - 00:26:38:17
David Jones
Yeah, totally. That's the I mean we've seen that in some of the other workflows again, but it's using all this without workflow framework. One of our customers uses us for a pre-trained workflow and so this was previously spread across email chats, telephone, and there was no kind of consistent way of, of recording, you know, who's responding fastest, who's the most reliable person involved in these workflows by bringing into a single bot framework, you know, it means that we can collect these kind of statistics and you can use them for kind of broader, you know, collection of metrics and so on, so that ultimately we want to start using this kind of information for predictive analytics.

00:26:39:03 - 00:27:12:07
David Jones
But I think that's a little bit further down the road. Yeah, just to talk up, we mentioned fix a little bit earlier on. I think that's this is something that we we are particularly excited about is the is what symphony provides as a kind of market infrastructure that it can actually sort of help to how to replace some of these quite difficult to implement, you know, implement processes like fixed protocols.

00:27:13:09 - 00:27:17:13
David Jones
Rob, can you could you explain a little bit about the market infrastructure side of symphony?

00:27:17:18 - 00:27:46:16
Rob Friend
Yeah, sure. I think one of the things that we hear quite frequently is the kind of last mile problem. So obviously, like you talked about, you know, big into data brokers and big sales sites have fixed connections set up. And, you know, that's that's great and works well. But as soon as you start moving down the customer base, getting a getting a fixed connection in place or getting on to someone's queue to be able to fix connection can take a long time.

00:27:46:16 - 00:28:16:13
Rob Friend
So where I think Symphony has a role to play is really that sort of last mile connection between one firm and another where we can actually use the infrastructure we've got, which is a secure, encrypted chat room, which you could also call a data pipe to connect those two institutions. Now yeah, kind of health warning is it's, it's built for chat so I wouldn't recommend that anyone starts putting down their level to equity market data because it probably isn't designed for that.

00:28:16:13 - 00:28:29:21
Rob Friend
But yeah, when you're talking about kind of free trade or post-trade workflows, there's definitely a role to play there where a symphony can act as that kind of connector that allows you to quickly and easily get those those those connections in place.

00:28:31:12 - 00:28:59:13
David Jones
Yeah, that's right. So what we've done in our fixed chat workflows is we've done the hook up to one of our customers fixed services and then we receive messages from that customer via fix. Then we inspect the message and so we can see, okay, well who's this supposed to be sent to and what's this message about? And we use that information to route that into a symphony chat route.

00:29:00:02 - 00:29:31:04
David Jones
So all bots basically takes the fixed message, decides who needs to be sent to, and then converts it into a human readable message, which could be something like a trade confirmation, for example. And so that's what we're increasingly saying is on the workflow side, is customers wanting to automate these kind of, you know, these types of tedious workflows where somebody, you know, a human user is being expected to type in a trade confirmation.

00:29:31:08 - 00:29:57:06
David Jones
So it's a chat room, but by hooking up, you know, processes like fix, doing this kind of message routing and then mapping into human readable form and sending that message into a chat room, you know, it can really kind of streamline people's processes and make things a lot more, a lot more efficient. So yeah, there's a whole level of of workflow that can be built on top of a, on top of chat bots.

00:29:57:13 - 00:30:27:23
David Jones
You know, we've talked in a lot of detail about the data workflow where people are able to request data that they're interested in or ask the bots to, you know, tell me when something changes about the data I'm interested in. But I think certainly, you know, the next, you know, exciting phase that we're moving into is, you know, is is more workflows, people being being automated and brought into the chat world, which means that people don't need to be switching out of different applications.

00:30:27:23 - 00:30:40:12
David Jones
They can just stay inside something that's already running on their desktop. Rob, have you got any any thoughts about some you know, what's happening next? What do you think? Where do you think that the workflows are moving?

00:30:41:08 - 00:31:06:10
Rob Friend
So I think the thing that is going to be interesting over the coming years is that hybrid world. So, you know, we see voice is still going to exist in the markets. You know, people get a lot of value out of the voice. Obviously. Chat has been with us for a while now. Email unfortunately still with us. My inbox is out of control and I'm sure we would all love a much better yeah, much better workflow than email.

00:31:07:13 - 00:31:38:09
Rob Friend
And then obviously now we've got chat bots and those, you know, there's a more prevalent in our personal and professional life. So I think the kind of the future is probably in probably how do those things work better together. So when voice and machine so Paul Heyman can work together I'm I'm imagining a world where you know those things start to blur more and more that we can kind of build those interfaces so the machine can talk in a human understandable way to a human.

00:31:38:18 - 00:32:10:08
Rob Friend
So a chapel and a voice transcription. And then you start to get into the kind of A.I. and LP and all the, all the information that's held in those voice conversations. Unlocking that, I think is, is the next big challenge. And so how we bring those three kind of parts together is really going to be the challenge. We've got to be exciting, and that's where a lot of efficiencies, benefits are going to come from, I think is trying to remove all that friction and all the rigging and all the lost information that sits somewhere in a database that no one can actually get access to.

00:32:10:08 - 00:32:12:00
Rob Friend
So there's lots to do.

00:32:12:12 - 00:32:17:04
David Jones
Yeah, totally of how about use of it. But do you think. I think.

00:32:17:04 - 00:32:40:07
Simon Coughlan
Broadly agree. I mean I think really talking about all bots at all, really the next stage for me is being able to talk to it directly rather than issuing the commands. So that's that's where I see it going next, where there's still the use of voice. But voice is talking to the bot bots, doing all the heavy lifting.

00:32:40:07 - 00:32:56:15
David Jones
Great. Well we better get started. Let's, let's get working on it. Great. Well, thanks very much to both of you. It's been a really interesting session and thanks for your insights and look forward to catching up with you again soon. Thank you.

00:32:56:23 - 00:32:57:07
Rob Friend
Thanks to.

00:32:57:09 - 00:32:57:15
Simon Coughlan
Both.